Disk Replacement at Stenum Hospital, Bremen, Deutschland

relentlessss · #1 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 10:24 PM

A cervical disk damaged 20 years ago in a diving accident herniated last Friday causing excruciating pain and temporary immobility. I am extremely active in long distance cross county running, swimming, and biking and also enjoy weight training. I am currently functional within the context of living inside the house. Not much else. I have gathered all data available via internet regarding spinal surgery and disk replacement. My findings are as follows:

The gold standard for disk removal and fusion of vertabrae is a short term option with reduced mobility, increased susceptibility to pain due to spinal jarring during routine events (My friend had two vertabrae in his neck fused but had to give up fishing due to rocking of boat which resulted in extreme discomfort), and certain failure of surrounding disks in a domino effect due to increased stress being transferred to the surrounding disks.

Disk replacement alternatives are not widely practiced and represent a relatively new option in the United States. The bulk of experience and best technology for disk replacement seems to reside in Deutschland. Stenum Hospital in particular appears to be a leader in the field. I am currently considering a path for surgery at Stenum. Can anyone provide me data on Stenum related cervical disk replacement experiences?

Sincerely, Richard Jung

MRI Indications:

Small right paracentral disc protrusion at C5-C6. Approximately 2mm of subluxation at C5-C6.

Degenerative disk disease with annular bulging and subchondral bone reaction at C6-C7 with moderately severe right neuroforaminal narrowing and moderate narrowing of the left foramen.

C7-T1 has moderate left neuroforaminal narrowing from the posteromarginal osteophyte.

mmglobal · #2 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 11:31 PM

Dear Richard,

Your brief overview of the situation pretty much sums it up. The US is catching up and there are ADR options in the US, but the only 2 approved cervical discs are older versions. These may work well in some applications, but the newer devices do have improvements that simply make them better options. There are many devices that are variations on proven designs, and there are also some newer devices that have little or no long-term data.

Stenum does an excellent job at marketing, but they have a poor reputation because of the number of unnecessary problems that we've seen come from there. The do a lot of surgeries and have a lot of successful patients. Yes, even the best clinics have disasters. Unfortunately, too many of the failures we see from Stenum have to do with poor carpentry... just poor placement or poorly sized devices. I even know a failed Stenum patient with the device put in upside down. Too many of these patients would have had an excellent chance of success if they had been with a more careful surgeon.

If you need spine surgery, you are in trouble. Don't underestimate the importance of the decisions you'll make here. Do everything you can do to maximize your chances for success. Understand that under the best of circumstances, people who are excellent candidates still esperience problems. Conversly, I often see horrible candidates with spines that are train-wrecks, have excellent outcomes. There are reasons that spine surgery fail that cannot be anticipated or avoided. But, the unnecessary failures that would have been successes had they gone to a more experienced or more careful surgeon are very tough to watch.

I've scrubbed in on or observed surgeries at 7 different spine centers in Europe (including Stenum) and 8 centers in the US... there can be a big difference from one surgeon to the next. It's not always about experience... it's about getting consistent, high quality output. It's about being willing to take the extra time to do it right.

Do your homework.... make informed decisions! Whatever you decide... good luck!

Mark

Maria · #3 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 05:16 PM

Hi Rich,
Welcome~ sorry about the circumstances that bring you here although it's good to be able to reach out to others w/similar probs/situations and ask questions.

Re Stenum, do your research and search/check archives on persons who went there for surgery and what their experiences were.

Some had great successes but the extreme failures and the reasons why would keep me from including Stenum in my choices of facilities/surgeons to have disc replacement (or further spine surgery) done.

I've had 2 discectomies and have had long standing lumbar problems with recommendations for quite a number of surgeries since 1998 ranging from 3 level global fusion to 2 level disc replacement to ADR plus fusion (hybrid surgery).

Currently I'm in a holding pattern which may or may not be good. One could say I'm at the extreme end of waiting and researching my options!

My advice to you is to most definately take your time and research your options as you must live with the outcome and you will want to feel you've made the very best decision possible re your choice of surgeon/facility.

dshobbies · #4 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 06:12 PM

Hi Rich,

I'm sorry your circumstances brought you to this forum but am glad you found us. I too found sthe Stenum hospital when first looking into the ADR world and was quickly informed about too many horror stories. When thinking about them the analogy of quantity not quality comes to mind. From what I've read they also seem to lose interest in their 'failures', sending very sick individuals home.

Yes, these are the drastic cases and they do have their successes too. Their claim is that they take on cases that other doctors won't. Well, there's a reason other doctors won't. Not only should you do your homework, you should also get more than one opinion and if you're thinking about an ADR, those consults should be with doctors well versed in and able to preform the procedure. For a list of the best doctors world wide, you might want to contact Mark privately.

I wish you the best,
Dale

fuzzy · #5 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 09:02 PM

I was scheduled for ADR at Stenum 4 years ago. I delayed the surgery only to hear of several disasters that happened there THAT month. So I feel glad I listend to the local doctors who said "wait a while longer, it might all grow together and then the pain will be less"............

Well, the pain is not less, it is more. I have managed to improve in certain ways by avoiding the activitys that causes peak pain but the cronic pain level has been getting worse and worse and the neuro problems in my feet and legs are on the rise. I am not sure if waiting was a good Idea and I had that feeling back then. Now I am scheduled with Dr Bertagnoly in Bogen on November 7 for a least 2 but possible 3 level lumbar ADR with bone cement for my weak bones and I am glad I am there and not in Bremen, after years of study I am sure I make the right decision to go ahead and take the chance rather then continue to suffer. Maria you have suffered too long it seems.

Aarne

Sonata · #6 (**permalink**) 11-07-2007, 12:59 PM

Hello

I am pretty new to the forum could't help reading your post. I have been doing extensive search about ADR technology because I have prolapsed discs in my cervical spine at c5-c6, c6-c7. Although my MRI shows a big prolapse especially at c6 c7 section my symptoms are only the occasional pins and needles feeling on my left arm. Somewhere I am lucky here because I was told a lot of patients required surgery with results like that. No one knows why. I have found Alphaklinik on the net located in Munich with world's best doctors in this field (both for cervical and lumbar problems). I have made an extensive research and haven't heard of any complaints. Please check http://www.alphaklinik.com/ you will see that they seem to be the leading experts in this field. They have a broad range of solutions other than ADR as well. I am keeping this in my reference list in case I need it in the future. A lot of prominent sports people and politicians got treated there, I guess we can consider as good reference.

I hope this helps.

Pattygo · #7 (**permalink**) 01-01-2011, 12:02 AM

Hi Mark,
can you please tell me which one you think are the best centers in Europe and in US for disc replacement?

Thank you for your help

Patty

Pattygo · #8 (**permalink**) 01-01-2011, 12:04 AM

Hi Mark,
can you please tell me which one you think are the best centers in Europe and in US for disc replacement?

Thank you for your help

Patty

Maria · #9 (**permalink**) 01-01-2011, 10:32 AM

Patty,
You can get to Mark's website at GPN Artificial Disc Replacement ADR if you'd like to contact him.

cp7959 · #10 (**permalink**) 01-02-2011, 02:29 AM

I went to Stenum, biggest mistake I ever made.

I would recommend seeking options in the States. You can get better pricing and better at home care. And there are many experienced surgeons who are more than qualified.

dshobbies · #11 (**permalink**) 01-02-2011, 06:50 PM

CP,

True, there are better surgeons worldwide but the cost in the US is still double that (if not more) than other countries. Personally, I recommend Dr. Bertagnoli and Zeegers in Germany - where I paid less than half what it would have cost with Dr. Regan, an excellent surgeon in Beverly Hills.

If insurance companies would come around, I agree, staying here would be better as we now have our own top doctors.

Dale

cp7959 · #12 (**permalink**) 01-03-2011, 01:22 AM

I paid 46K for a 2 level ADR at Stenum (C4/5, C5/6).

In April I paid 17K all inclusive for Prestige Cervical Disk at C3/C4 in the States. My Dr. talked to the hospital, Disk rep., to reduce their fee's and also reduced his own fee.

I believe there are many Dr.'s that will work with patients because of insurance coverage issues. I have BCBS, denied coverage for ADR.

dshobbies · #13 (**permalink**) 01-03-2011, 04:43 PM

Maybe things have changed in the last 5 years. As a 'cash' patient, Cedars was willing to charge me 75k for the discs and 3 day hospital stay - including surgical center. The now defunct Doctor's Hospital, eager for patients as they were just opening, wanted more and wouldn't budge. Doctors would not lower their fees either.

My surgery at the time was supposed to by hybrid with a fusion at
s1/L5. I asked if why they wouldn't bill the ins co for that covered surgery or at least give me the BC rate. I'm still running around at their answer.

Glad you had more luck