Myth Buster

[Job13]

RIP Freedom of Speech

[Maria]

There has to be a more or less definate clinical picture or fine cut off point where surgeons determine not to do ADR re facet degenerative changes tho perhaps at times the clinical picture is not always as clear before surgery as it is afterwards?

[JeffreyD]

More like an axe to grind than beneficial dialogue.
-Jeff

[Job13]

RIP Freedom of Speech

[Job13]

RIP Freedom of Speech

[Maria]

I think any surgery of this magnitude can be potentially life threatening. Depends on the patient and the surgeon.

I do not take spine surgery lightly after my failed percutaneous discectomy on L4. I took that far too lightly. Big mistake. By the time I was eligble for a 2 level ADR I was too scared to go thru w/it.

I don't know what a vein barrier is so cannot answer that question tho could google it and probably find out tho would rather you define it since you asked the question.

[Crystal33]

Unfortunately I don't think any spine surgery is certain of being done safely. And the more significant the procedure the less safe it becomes. There are probably 101 risks that must be successfully managed in ADR surgery to prevent bad patient outcome. Being 100% safe = avoiding hospital.

Even minor spine surgery sometimes has bad outcomes I recently discovered. There was recent discussion about percutaneous disectomy being less invasive, more safe, etc... I later read some bad patient experiences on doctor ratings website. Feel sorry for the people.

If you cannot avoid surgery all that can be done is try to get best doctor and best facilities to be as safe as you can. I think you made a good choice in Dr Reagan. I read he uses a separate vascular surgeon. I think having a patient advocate, including in O.R., would be an additional plus imo.

[dshobbies]

I just wrote a long reply -twice, only to have it disappear -twice.

The jist of my long-windedness was - when faced with disabling pain - when faced with 2 previous failed disco/lamis - when faced with no life - what are we supposed to do?

The options are - less proven remedies, more disco/lamis leading to further DDD, fusions, which curtail mobility, perhaps drastically and lead to further DDD, or ADRs, which preserve mobility, can also lead to further DDD albeit at a slower pace but is also the new kid on the block with little history to back various claims.

I laid around all day, everyday, going out only for physical therapy and doctors appointments. I had 4 bad levels, 3 of which were pain generators. I no longer even had dinner with my family and could barely stand long enough for a shower.

You're proof that education and research don't always work - but what are our other choices???????? I believe that is the question.

I should also add that no surgery should be taken lightly. Hospitals can be dangerous places. 'Things' can go wrong. But again, weighing your options and deciding on the best course for ourselves, is all we have.

I have complete sympathy for everything you've gone through and understand your anger and frustration. I wish you all the best. And even knowing what I know now, knowing the kind of life I had and the kind I have now, realizing that the daily pain I live with might have been avoidable, and then again, maybe not, I would do the same thing again. You would not.

My best to you Anastasia, Dale

[Job13]

RIP Freedom of Speech

[Maria]

considering the various things that might occur w/original surgery and then a revision surgery if at least one thing can make a certain part of the surgery significantly more safe that much would be good.

thanks the explanation of vein barrier. Short and simple so easy enough to remember! Can try to look up more info from that much.

[ans]

Here's a few articles on the vein barrier viz. ADR revision. Note that one author recommends it for all ADRs.

vein barrier artificial disc revision - Google Search

[Maria]

Good find ans~ thanks!

[Job13]

RIP Freedom of Speech

[Job13]

RIP Freedom of Speech

[AngelFly]

This is interesting. Thanks for the info.

[Crystal33]

J13, I followed a link you posted at start of thread relating to a particular doctor (who's name I won't retype). He sounded like a good guy.
He published a personal review of a number of different ADR’s and gave a thumbs up to Maverick ADR in particular eg....

“…..This implant has the best design features and material to last the patient's lifetime. It also replicates the normal biomechanical forces at the operative and adjacent spinal levels. Of all the disc replacements at this time, the Maverick will most likely have the best results and longevity.”

Sounded good, coming from a spine doctor, so I looked for some confirming studies, but unfortunately found these.
Biomechanical Changes of the Lumbar Segment after Total Disc Replacement : Charite®, Prodisc® and Maverick® Using Finite Element Model Study
SpringerLink - Archives of Orthopaedic and Trauma Surgery, Volume 129, Number 6
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...-9493-3-15.pdf


I then searched the disc manufacturer and .........
#06-445: 07-18-06 Medtronic to Pay United States $40 Million to Settle Kickback Allegations
Doctors Accused Of Kickbacks By Whistleblower // Pharmalot

Pretty disturbing I think.

[nomorepain]

i have to put in my 2 cents, so here goes......
i don't think any surgery should be taken lightly, especially spinal surgery.
And consideration of artificial discs, should be taked very seriously, all options should be explored as well as you surgeons abilities. Me and my situation, i am in the trials here in the U.S. i was one of guinea pigs so to speak, and paved the way to this remarkable situation so as to get the Prodiscs approved by the FDA, any 2 surgeries are not alike, everyone has different results, weather with implants or not. Given the correct situation with the right options, anyone can become pain-free or not, it's almost a crap shoot.
I am lucky, my before surgery back pain is gone, however i am not pain-free.
I still have a few times a year when i am dealing with a bad muscle spasm, or it feels like my sciatic pain is back and i walk the walk of a spiney in pain. But i am so much better off than i was before. We must measure our results from within and not compare with others. i do love this forum, as it is a great group of people who all share our experiences. I wish it was around before i had my prodisc surgery

[Maria]

It could be myth it could be fact just depending on the individual:

wait until you get older as your spine will fuse on it's own and the pain will stop.

Ok ... so two discectomies later, two rebulges later, 2nd surgery failing terribly with majorly increased pain for many years and finally from point of first diagnosis with bulging disc at L5S1 in '82, discectomy in '89 and then surgery above that level.. was told in 2010 that there was autofusion at the L5S1 level.

For me personally much reduced pain at this level, painful neuropathies mostly gone after 18 years and activity level increased, sitting ability increased (tho not for hours just to what it was before the 2nd surgery pretty much or a bit better).


For some it might be a myth re autofusion allowing for pain relief and for me I think it's reality tho again that's given my own clinical picture, healing and so forth. Not that I don't have pain just not tailbone pain anymore and not the same as bad as it used to be).

[Crystal33]

Significant improvement after 18 years, via slow but steady body response, is really something. It is remarkable how the body can absorb the whole disc over time. It puts a different perspective on the sometimes quoted medical advice about considering surgery if conservative treatment doesn't help after 6 weeks. The other angle is what will be the outcomes after 18 years for the thousands of people with implanted ADR's. Personally I have not been able to find many truly independent studies about this. It would be a traumatic experience with unknown outcome to have to get one dug out within your lifetime, imo.

[Maria]

Seems like most of the failed ADRs or revision surgeries that I've read about (at least on forums) have gone to fusion within a relatively short period of time. Guess with trial information in the states maybe we'll know in 20 years time how the population did with long term ADR implants or if there were significant # of revisions done in this population.

I have some thoracic twinges sometimes around T7 where I have a degree of scoliosis and my OSS has said would be the next disc level to bulge tho instead it was my cervical area(in a very symptomatic way) and I've been rather afraid of upsetting my spinal structural applecart with more spine surgery as I think after all this time all surrounding structures have adapted and I function better with less pain.

Not to mention everything WC (low back) is a royal pain to deal with.