Our story: from 2 surgeries to becoming an "invalid"...

[Keano16]

Regards to all members,

I am registered to a few forums, but this is one that is most appropriate to detailed explanation of our problems.

I am 47 years old women, with back problems in last 10 years. "Standard" sciatica problems during whole lifetime. I went to physiatrists, orthopeadics, chiro's, neurosurgeons...

During all this years (10), I received tons of injections, which all helped, and I was always able to work, sleep, sit down, walk for few km's (miles).

But with time, my conditions was getting worse and worse. I started to have constant leg and middle-right back pain.

My doctor sent me to a MRI and told me I must see a neurosurgeon. Immediatly I found best neurosurgeon in my country and went to see him. After looking at my images, after just 2 minutes he scheduled me to a surgery. That was around 18 months ago. I was operated on levels L3/4 (disc extrusion).

I was so happy, I was hopping this is the end. I will continue with my life... BUT... It all started wrong during rehab. I was not able to exercise, go to pool, sit, stand, anything. I was just lying in bed and getting injections for 3 weeks.

Also, important thing to notice is that I had raised body temperature from day of my first surgery. I have around 37.5 celsius, and normal is bellow 36.9.

I scheduled appointment with my neurosurgeon, he looked into new MRI and he told "You can go back home, all is all right"... He didn't even listened to me when I told I cannot walk or sit down. He just told "You need to wait a little longer".

After that I seen him aprox 5-7 times, every time he just said "I am sorry".

Aproximatly 15 months after that first surgery, I decided to change hospital and neurosurgeon. That was very hard decision, because everyone told he is THE BEST.

My son found me one of the best neurosurgeons in this part of Europe, scheduled me an appointment... This one is really good, skilled and perspective. Educated at AlphKlinik Germany, Cleveland Spine Center, etc.

After seeing me for 2 minutes he started laughing. His words are:
"You should never underwent a surgery".
I told him: "Doctor, they tell me all is right, but I cannot live with this pains".
He told: "How can they say its all right, when it isn't"

Immediatly he scheduled me for a endoscopic discectomy L4 left and told me "This can help you only 10%, your spine problem is much more complexe".

Indeed, after surgery I feeld 10% better, leg pain is gone, but knife is still in my low back .

Few days after surgery he made a new MRI, which shown:
HIZ, High-Intensity zone in L4/5.


I studied this condition very well, I ordered articles from Briting Journal of Radiology (Bogduk And Aprill's article) and I found out HIZ is predictive sign for Grade 4 or even Grade 5 annular tear.

I am just not sure is it possible that HIZ causes such a terrible pains.

EDIT: I forgot to describe my current condition and write about surgeries.

1st surgery November 2007: Extrusio disci i.v. LIII-IV 1.dex.
Surgery: Interlaminectomy LIII-IV dex., Ablatio disci i.v., Foraminotomy radicis L4 dex.

2nd surgery Februarry 2009
Surgery type: Endoscopic discectomy and decompression L4 root right

My current condition: constant middle back pain. Not able to walk, sit or lay in bed for more than 15 minutes.
Life almost destroyed, looking forward to seeing my neurosurgeon in 2 weeks time.


Thanks everyone for their time on reading this.

[dshobbies]

Keano,

I've already said welcome so let's get right to your problem. I am assuming you live in Germany?

We have often said the best chance for a successful surgery is your choice of doctor. You thought you chose the best but apparantly, this was not the case. Then you went to someone else you trusted for a 10% improvement.
I too thought I chose the best neurosurgeon in my area and though he did a good job, it wasn't the best option for my circumstances and perhaps your circumstances dictate a different surgery.

Artificial Disc Replacement (ADR) is a device that actually replaces your diseased disc, which is completely removed before inserting the artificial one. Though there are risks and healing from this surgery can take awhile, if your discs cannot be repaired, they will continue to cause pain. Another option might be fusion where your disc is removed, bone matter is inserted and allowed to heal into solid bone. This option also requires an extended healing time but also prohibits movement from that disc space which can have a negative impact from the discs above and below it. This means, the whole thing can happen again and again and so on. You should also know that just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. These are possible side effects.

Your best chance for success is still your choice of doctor. The best ADR surgeon in the world is Dr. Bertagnoli in Bogan and Strauding. You can have an internet consultation. Dr. Bertagnoli or
Home - Pro-Spine - Your spine specialists - We are an expert team of orthopaedic surgeons. I don't know if he charges for these initial consultations but I don't think so. Both he and his associate Dr. Fenk-Meyer are highly competent and you just might find the remedy you're so desperately seeking. It's worth contacting them.

We all know what living with constant pain is like. Many of us know about failed back surgeries and the surgeons who simply tell us they're sorry but there's nothing more they can do. This is a horrible way to live. Please contact Dr. B and maybe you can get your life back.

Please keep us posted. We care and we'll be following your story.

Dale

[Kathy]

Keano,
Sorry to hear about your continued back problems. Many from the US travel to Germany to see surgeons for ADR's. There is the above mentioned dr and there are also great surgeons at Stenum. We have several members who have went to either of these places and all had great success. If you don't mind telling us, who was the dr that did the original surgery?
Kathy

[Keano16]

@dshobbies
No, I live in Easter Europe, Croatia.

I've heard interesting facts regarding ADR, I am not sure what our current neurosurgeon will tell me about it, I will for sure ask him when I see him.

I am not such a fan of fusion, I am scared of crews and theese kinds of things. ADR sounds much better and less invasive.

I've tried to reach Dr. Bertagnoli, and I've reached his associate Dr. Fenk-Meyer. I've shortly described them our situation, but they requested 250 EURO just to review our case, which is in this situation and recession - TOO much for us to afford just for wireless review. I know Dr. B and his associate are recpected and world-class doctors, but I expected more compassion and humanity in their reply, I thought they would be happy to help me after so much troubles I went through.

@ Kathy
My original neurosurgeon was Dr. Josip Paladino, most probably you never heard of him, but he is very respected in my countries and our neighbours. He makes surgeries on presidents, ministries, famous sportsmen, stars, celebs, etc. Everyone told nice things about him, but in our case it was disaster.
My new neurosurgeon is something else, I trust him so much but yet I am afraid what will happen with me at the end.

Thanks for understanding and advices.

[mmglobal]

Keano16,

I'm sorry to read more of these details. I'm not sure I understand why 2 decompression surgeries then ongoing low back pain would make you a 'no hoper' with no surgical alternatives. If the disc(s) are causing disabling pain (as mine were after my 2 decompression surgeries), then the options of ADR or even fusion will stand a good chance of resolving the pain. You may have permanent issues following your surgeries, but hopefully, you'll discover the discs themselves are painful.

Have you had discography?

All the best,

Mark

[Katie]

Keano, I'm sorry you are going through so much. It is bad enough to have the initial pain, but to then still suffer after surgery that you though would help is even worse.

As to the annular tear, please have a look at dridobits' posts here. She has an annular tear too, and the results are what she calls a chemical burn, I think. I would have to go back and read it myself to be sure. She describes terrible pain from this too. Perhaps write to her and get some more details, and compare notes. She is very nice and great to talk to.

I have to agree with you, probably against the opinions of most others here, about being charged so much to just have the MRIs assessed. I think they are some of the few surgeons that do that. I know my experience with several other big name surgeons did not involve any money...they went over my images at no charge. The resulting four hour in person consult did cost, but that is different from the initial appraisal. But you have to play by their rules, I guess. We can chat more if you like, through a PM.

It is very difficult when funds are limited. Most of us are in that same boat unfortunately, at one level or another. But keep pushing to at least find the right decision for you, and then when you have a positive path, sometimes the rest falls into place easier. Sorry if I sound like I'm rambling...not a good morning.

[Keano16]

@mmglobal
Yes, discography shown damaged discs from L2 to L5, but L4/5 is the problem...
Also prooven by discography, HIZ on L4/5 is most probable pain source.

@Katie
Yes, I've read many articles about annular tears and HIZ, even bought some articles, and now I know what we deal with.

Thanks.

[Keano16]

Now its a big decision to choose between ADR and fusion... If I will even have a chance to choose.

Not sure if ADR can be implemented in Croatia :-s.

[Maria]

A bit like my own in terms of results post 2nd spine surgery (2nd discectomy, first on L5S1 and 2nd on L4).. I was pretty much bedridden with severe low back pain and also disabling burning pain in buttocks, quads, lower legs, feet.

My old life was destroyed and altho more surgery has been offered of varying types I chose pain meds to mask the pain and lumbar ESIs..

Not that this is a way of life as it's more a way of existing tho thankfully w/less pain but if there's the opportunity to see the best and there are options then weigh them carefully.

I have an anular tear at L3 on discography shows the disc is disrupted but non cordant for pain, L4 and L5S1 are concordant for pain on 2 discograms.

While waiting to make my surgical decision I gathered enough opinions that were more or less recommending the same surgery however I've prolonged this waiting process a bit much..

Take a bit more time if you're able to get additional opinions if more surgery is recommended and it's not emergent to have surgery would be my advice. If you're able to travel and pay for the surgery that seems the most optimal then that would be my choice (not saying I can do this just would be my preference).

[rhatzy]

Keano16,

Stenum will evaluate you for free. Just send them your MRI's and they will get back with very quickly. Artificial disc replacement surgery at Stenum Hospital Germany, lumbar disc replacement, cervical disc replacement, previous fusion ok, multi level, cervical ADR, leading surgeons, Maverick, maverick Disc, Spinal Kinetics, Charite disc, SB Charite, D I had a two level don January 08 and am now pain free and back to work as a captain for American Airlines. They are great surgeons.

Mark

[Keano16]

Thanks, I have contacted them.