Annular Tears, chemical radiculopathy.

[guymontag]

Hi All

First off I just want to thank Mark Mintzer for creating this site. It's a great site and there is a lot of intelligent thoughts, unfortunately we have all lived with or still live with a lot of pain. I've been lurking here for the past year almost.

History: I've been a chronic sloucher and herniated my L5-S1 on the right side. I saw 2 specialists and both said it was operable based on the MRI scans. Both believed I should have it done due to my pain level. My pain level was high to the point where I couldn't sit for very long and I'd be exhausted by the end of the day. No mention was made about annular tears or internal disc disruptions. I didn't know about these concepts pre-op. I hadn't researched enough and trusted these Doctors, that 90% of micro-discectomies were successful and I would have resolution of symptoms post-op. I went with the 2nd specialist and was slotted in for a 1st of july microdiscectomy. The thing was I was feeling better (could sit with some pain), by the date of the op, and was almost in two minds about proceeding.

Had the op, and felt immediate relief. Previously could only manage a 15degree leg raise. I could now do a 50 degree leg raise. I felt I had my life again. Went back to work at week 4 but had slight stumble over some cables. It wasn't even a big stumble but it must of been enough to place stress on the damaged disc. I felt immediate sciatic surge of pain. But from that time on, things started to go downhill. I soon developed the right foot numbness again, pins and needles whenever I sat down. I phoned the specialist and the nurse said don't worry, nothings wrong its normal. I still wasn't convinced as I was getting very odd sensations. Pain in the left side, which wasn't there pre-op, pain in the hip even. I requested an MRI quite early on and again nothing showed up, certainly no nerve compression. Again the Surgeon doctor never mentioned Annular tears or Internal disc disruptions. He said I'm worrying too much, stop worrying. Just live your life. do some exercise.

Well I did just that, but since a lot of my job is sitting. The pain increased as I sat each day. To the point where I couldn't sit anymore. It's at this point I did more researched and learned about annular tears and chemical proteins affecting the nerves.

I now suffer from numbness that comes and goes in each foot. Nerve pain along both sides of the back of my legs that seem to follow the S1 dermatome. aching calf muscles that come and go. sciatic surges in the right side periodically. I know if I sit down for over 30 mins there will be hell to pay later. Activity will flare it up. Can't stand up for more than a few hours (fortunately). I can still move around and do a 50degree leg raise.

What I've found.

There is a definite process occuring in the disk. It's almost like the disc will try to heal, I will have leg pains for a few days, then I will feel sciatic like surges on the right side the next day. The day after I will feel increased numbness in my feet and will seem like I'm having a good day as I don't get any leg nerve pain. then the process starts again. This was occuring for weeks.

The pathology I feel that is occuring (note: I'm no doctor and am probably whistling in the wind) is that the disc is constantly generating this fluid, its is being contained in the disc, but some is leaking out through a tear. All the while the fluid level builds up in pressure until it can't be contained and then escapes out through a weak spot on the right side causing sciatic surging in the back. The fluid level reacts constantly with the nerve all this time but by the end of the cycle has emptied itself out into the epidural space, so you get this day that it seems you have less leg symptoms.

I've been taking glucosamine for the past 3 months 1gram in the morning and 2 grams at night. I also haven't been sitting for more than 15 mins, as I feel this is just opening up the annular tear further. And mostly stand or lie down. My pain symptoms have dropped, so I think I'm doing something right. Chirogeek speaks about possibly up to 2 years for healing if at all. I will give it 2 years as I certainly don't want a fusion, as my pain levels are manageable.

Anyway I'll keep adding to this thread, just in case it gives people food for thought or might help.

[dshobbies]

Hi Guy and welcome,

I'm sorry you're experiencing all this pain but we are here for you. First, should you need more surgery, you may not be limited to fusion but that bridge is something you can cross later.

Have you tried Neurontin or Lyrica? Both of these work very well on nerve pain though they do have their side effects. Though I have now chosen to deal with the pain instead of those side effects, these drugs were invaluable during the earlier stages of my surgical healing. It was two years before my pain was managable and I am grateful these drugs were there. If you're you are going to wait two years before addressing another surgery, you might find these drugs make your life easier.

Just for the telling, I've never heard that it takes two years for a disc to heal. Mark?

Dale

[guymontag]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I may get some pain killers but I too am worried about side effects. Anyway, time will tell. If it gets worse we'll see.

Yes true about alternative therapies. I have read about IDET. but it looks a bit hit and miss.

this technology looks promising...

Biostat Disc Augmentation System

Spinal Restoration - Products

Again time will tell if its truly successful... here's to hope!!!

[mmglobal]

I have 3 clients with the 'biologic disc sealant' injections with mixed results. It's very interesting and may be worth trying for the good candidates.

Unfortunately, the school of hard knocks that I mentioned in another thread came on my wife's case. If you look at her imaging on her GPN story page, you'll see that her disc is really severely compromised. I don't have her full MRI, but the sagittal images shows buckled annulus across the entire back of the disc. The chance for long-term success from the endoscopic-d was probably not so great. (My apologies... her story page needs updating. She had a wonderful result fo 2.5 months, then started having radicular pain on the other side. She had a 2-level ADR in March 2008 and is not back at work full-time as RN, now almost 8 months post-op. Newer info in her surgery blog.)

Regarding chemical irritation of the nerve roots... I agree that many surgeons pooh-pooh the idea, much like most used to pooh-pooh discogenic pain and discography. (Same problem exists w/piriformis syndrome and so many other bastard diagnoses.)

I was in the OR with Tony Yeung and he said something like, "Look here Mark, do you see the way the nerve root is all smooth and red. This patient has very little fat insulating the nerve root. He can have what appears to be a minor disc protrusion that is not distorting the nerve root and must surgeons will look a the seemingly benign MRI and not believe that this is the problem." Later in the day, he showed me the same nerve on a different patient. "You see all the fat surrounding the nerve? This patient can have a substantial herniation with substantial compression of the nerve and have no symptoms or more minor symptoms than one might expect based on the MRI." The pictures do not always tell the story.

Dr. Yeung also talks about "interpositional disc tissue" as a reason for discectomy to fail. A fragment of nucleus material that is stuck in the annular tear will keep the tear from healing and will 'wick out' the neurotoxic juices that are produced in the disc. This is one of the advantages of SED. Working visually from inside the disc, he can see the annular tear and he can also see how the annulus responds to the thermal annuloplasty as he is watching it as he applies energy to it.

Gotta run... Thanks for the post. The discussion of chemical irritation is very interesting and I hope this helps.

All the best,

Mark

[guymontag]

Mark. Thankyou. Your a wealth of information.

Speaking of buckled annulus on the sagittalimage, I looked at my MRI and noticed exactly the same thing post op. I never asked the surgeon about it at the time as I didn't know about chemical radiculopathy. But it makes sense now. I might post it here for comment.

That's really interesting about the wicking out of nucleus fluid.


All the more reason to avoid a discectomy if you can.

I'm still going to wait 2 years and keep trying with the glucosamine.


anyway thanks again Mark..

[martyusa]

Originally Posted by guymontag

I'm still going to wait 2 years and keep trying with the glucosamine.


anyway thanks again Mark..

Talk to your Doctor or a Sports Medicine Doctor if you think this might help. But here's some homework in advance. I think I found it too late.

Drug Classification: Chondroprotector
Active Life: approximately 24-36 hours

Alflutop is the trademarked name of a product produced by the pharmaceutical company Biotehnos. The Alflutop produced by this company contains sea fish bioactive concentrate, which itself contains low molecular mass peptides, mucopolysaccharides, and amino acids. Also included are trace elements including zinc, copper, sodium, calcium, iron, and magnesium. Most often the compound is packaged in one milliliter amps which each contain ten milligrams of sea fish bioactive concentrate, as well as phenol which possesses anesthetic properties as well as acting as a preservative.

The medical use of Alflutop is primarily for the treatment of degenerative joint disorders such as tendonitis, ankylopoietic spondilitis, bursitis, spinal disc injuries and arthritis-related disorders (1). Obviously these are the same uses that bodybuilders and strength athletes will want to utilize Alflutop for as well.

Alflutop works in numerous ways to help stop tissue damage from happening in joints, while also repairing tissues that have already been damaged. This occurs via cartilage regeneration and a reduction in free radical damage within joint tissues. As well, the contents of Alflutop help to inhibit overproduction of hyaluronidase, an enzyme that catalyzes the breakdown of hyaluronic acid in the tissues of the body. Excessive production of this enzyme can lead to serious damage within joints. Alflutop will also help to restore and maintain homeostasis within chondrocytes, the structures responsible for the production and maintenance of the extracellular matrix of cartilage.

Along with the injectable version of Alflutop, Biotehnos also produces a topical ointment as well as a suppository form of the compound. However both of these forms of the drug will of course be less efficient as a delivery method of the compound and less effective. The injectable version of Alflutop is also the more commonly found form of the compound. For these reasons, the majority of users will want to administer the drug via injections.


Use/Dosing

Due to the active life of the compound, frequent dosing is required. For the most part, most users find that injecting one amp, 10mgs sea fish bioactive concentrate or one milliliter in volume, every day or every other day for a period of approximately twenty-one days will bring substantial relief in the majority of their symptoms as they relate to joint discomfort and/or damage. However this protocol has basically been devised by way of anecdotal information passed on from one user to another. In clinical trials the length of administering the drug has ranged from less then seven days to as long as several months. It was found that various lengths of time were needed to treated individuals and these were based on several factors including the amount of damage/trauma that was inflicted upon the joint(s), how well the individual reacted to the drug, and how much physical activity and recuperation methods the individuals used in conjunction with the drug treatment, among others. For this reason, no set standard needs to be adhered to when using Alflutop and the length of use should be determined by the results achieved with the compound.

The injectable version of Alflutop is administered via intramuscular injections. It seemingly does not matter which muscles that the compound is injected into as it will affect all of the joints of the user equally. There is no additional benefit to administering the drug into the area of the injury or trauma. This, along with the frequency of the injections, would allow the user to spread the injections throughout several muscle groups so as not to cause undue irritation to the muscles that the compound is being administered to.

In terms of use for females, it appears that the same dosages can be translated to women as they are for men. No real changes to the volume or frequency of the dosing of the drug need to be made, with no increase of severity or frequency of potential side effects being seen in women.

Like the duration of the administration of the drug, the frequency with which a user chooses to cycle the compound seemingly will not be hindered by side effects either. If one chooses to run Alflutop several times within a short period of time, this appears to be beneficial. In fact in the case of rheumatoid arthritis, this is the protocol for treatment using the drug in many cases (2). However anecdotally users have reported only needing to use the compound once or twice for years at a time and have never had a reoccurrence of their symptoms. Of course, a number of factors could also contribute to this, most notably being that most would not subject themselves to the activity that had caused the initial damage or trauma in the first place.


Risks/Side Effects

From the available research that has thus far been conducted it seems that Alflutop is well tolerated by nearly all subjects that have received it as treatment. It is also important to note that the vast majority of this research has been completed using elderly patients due to the research primarily concerning itself with use of the drug in those individuals who suffer from rheumatoid arthritis, among other conditions. This is important since many of these older patients may suffer from other age related diseases and/or conditions. From the research that has been conducted it appears that Alflutop has had not negative effects on those patients suffering from heart conditions, gastrointestinal distress/diseases or diseases of the thyroid (2, 3). Obviously these findings should also presumably hold true for younger, healthier individuals.

The only real negative side effects associated with the administration of Alflutop are some reports of irritation related to the frequent injections. Some post-injection pain was noted by some patients while others tolerated the frequent injections well. However no major complications related to the injections were reported in the available research and literature related to Alflutop.



References

1. Noskov SM, Fetelego OI, Krasivina IG, Dolgova LN. [Alflutop in local therapy of shoulder periarthritis] Ter Arkh. 2005;77(8):57-60.

2. Svetlova MS, Ignat'ev VK. [Use of alflutop in the treatment of patients with osteoarthrosis] Klin Med (Mosk). 2004;82(6):52-5.

3. Taran AI, Puzanova OG, Lapenko OIe, Sol's'kyi VI, Samoilova SM. [Experience gained with the use of local administration of medicinal remedies in rheumatic diseases] Lik Sprava. 2001 Sep-Dec;(5-6):182-5.

[mmglobal]

Originally Posted by guymontag

All the more reason to avoid a discectomy if you can.

I don't agree on avoiding discectomy. All spine surgeries should be avoided if possible. However, if you are a good candidate for a discectomy; properly done in a timely manner, it represents an excellent opportunity heal up and avoid bigger surgeries. I DO NOT believe the "90% of discectomy patients never need another spine surgery" statement that we hear from the surgeons. I do believe that for SOME of us who do not respond well to conservative treatment, it represents the best chance for long term success. (Long term success may be defined as simply avoiding bigger surgeries for some number of years... not necessarily forever.)

Mark

[Maria]

I had one discetomy in '89 that went well. Big ol' open surgery and while it was somewhat cumbersome to recover from it went really well in retrospect.

Sadly I had a knee surgery following that which landed me in a long leg cast and I believe encouraged the demise of L4 which was probably going downhill fast anyway after the L5S1 discectomy of '89.

The L4 percuteneous discectomy results were worse than awful. I mean horrific. But then again we're talking the early stages of percutenous discectomies and it should have had a good result considering I utilized the services of a Neurosurgeon but back then he was older nearing retirement and I didn't inquire as to his experience with this type of surgery vs. some others he was probably much more experienced with.

I had a good result with first surgery and terrible with 2nd. More lumbar surgery has been recommended. I grow older and have more medical problems including osteoporosis of lumbar spine. Sometimes it's not just that our spines are getting older but so are we and the propensity for other medical/health problems that will have to be considered should we need or choose to have a major spine surgery.

Please keep this factor in mind as well.

[guymontag]

Originally Posted by mmglobal

I don't agree on avoiding discectomy. All spine surgeries should be avoided if possible. However, if you are a good candidate for a discectomy; properly done in a timely manner, it represents an excellent opportunity heal up and avoid bigger surgeries. I DO NOT believe the "90% of discectomy patients never need another spine surgery" statement that we hear from the surgeons. I do believe that for SOME of us who do not respond well to conservative treatment, it represents the best chance for long term success. (Long term success may be defined as simply avoiding bigger surgeries for some number of years... not necessarily forever.)

Mark

Your probably right. Since my point of view is skewed as I am in more pain/ feel worse off after the op than before. So perhaps the operation is a very good operation, but its application and the way the surgeon determines whether your a good candidate is poor.

Strictly speaking, the operation was 100% successful, as I have no nerve impingement, leg raises ok, bend ok. Just unfortunately I have nerve irritation due to something?

Thanks Maria, that looks interesting. Has there been any case study on this product? I actually feel that the glucosamine is working, maybe its just the placebo effect, but I feel I am improving over the long time.

[Maria]

If it helps that's what counts or perhaps coincidentally you're just getting better. I've heard a number of older persons taking this report good results with knees but not really in terms of low back pain.

[Eddie G]

I have an annular tear at L5-S1 and I am going in for anterior/posterior fusion with pedicle screws on Tuesday. I have exhausted all non-invasive treatment and everyone feels this is the best option left. I cannot sit without pain and my quality of life is one step above a poop fly. I cant wait until this is over!

My discogram 2 years ago did show the annular tear but the pain was only recreated once. It has to be recreated twice to merit a positive result but I think the valium may have clouded my judgement at the time. The latest discogram reacted twice though my judgement was still cloudy. They also found a tear at L3-L4! Asympotmatic. I heard THAT before.

I'll let you know if the fusion fixes this pain issue.

[martyusa]

Originally Posted by Eddie G

I have an annular tear at L5-S1 and I am going in for anterior/posterior fusion with pedicle screws on Tuesday. I have exhausted all non-invasive treatment and everyone feels this is the best option left. I cannot sit without pain and my quality of life is one step above a poop fly. I cant wait until this is over!

My discogram 2 years ago did show the annular tear but the pain was only recreated once. It has to be recreated twice to merit a positive result but I think the valium may have clouded my judgement at the time. The latest discogram reacted twice though my judgement was still cloudy. They also found a tear at L3-L4! Asympotmatic. I heard THAT before.

I'll let you know if the fusion fixes this pain issue.

Eddie, Let me tell ya. My discogram @ L4-L5 was maybe a 4-5 and very tolerable. L5-S1 was the worst pain that I had ever felt in my life. Annulus was/is torn and the dye leaked through. Make sure they know what the pain indicators are!!!!

I had a posterior fusion "without" a vertebral spacer @ L5-S1. So now I have these screws and PEEK rods in my back and the pain indicator is still there. A lot of mis-communication and a lack of understanding what exactly was going on.

Before you do anything, make sure you know EXACTLY what is going to be done before you have an 8" scar on your back and the physical therapist getting pissed because he feels that all of "his" work will be for naught. (exact words)

[guymontag]

I feel for all of you guys. GOODLUCK Eddie. I hope you are pain free soon......


Speaking of noninvasive methods.

My biggest challenge initially when I started to get the pain was the fact that the more I sat, the more pain I got. I realised then that it was not a case of nerves needing to heal after the microdiscectomy.

I really have to thank chirogeek for detailing his pain. I've taken his mantra of just not sitting. I really think that the major reason why an annular tear never heals for people is that at least 40-50% of your waking hours is spent sitting somewhere. That's 3 times the pressure than standing.

Weight is probably another issue as well. Before my op I was 74kg, I think i'm down to 67kg. Not out of choice either. It maybe my body trying to reduce the pressure on the disc. I'm not suggesting anyone who has a annular tear lose heaps of weight, but it would relieve pressue off the disc.

The glucosamine is something I picked up from some site suggested by a Tim Durnin a phyiso or chiro, who was recommending it to anyone who had annular tears. since the disc is similar to cartlidge, I think it is a good supplement to rebuilding the disc faster than just a normal diet. Again no studies have ever been conducted on the efficacy of Glucosamine for annular tears. Why not? well they should but it won't make any money for surgeons and if found better than a placebo would lose money for them. Also glucosamine is an ingredient in the SED injection proceedure performed By Dr Yeung.

I read also on that biologix site Spinal Restoration - Products

that the disc healing process, starts with a clot buildup.

My theory,
Since the disc is always subject to varying pressures and toruques,
Usually this clot build up will break as it is not strong enough. It will then clot again, possibly the leaking nucleus fluid is part of this healing process, but sitting pressure never allows the clot to become stronger. Hence constant discogenic pain that increases as the tear opens up wider.

By not sitting, and taking pressure off the disc your allowing the clot to form. Even though the clot is not strong enough initially it will form again. Since your not sitting as much the initial clot has made some progress. So it rebuilds on the matrix. Again it might not hold and nucleus fluid escapes, but its a cumulative thing but over time the tear heals. It can the correlate to the feeling of "flareups" as I have experienced and what Doug the Chirogeek has written about. A period of sciatica that then subsides and he's left will a burning pain.

Just thoughts and ramblings...

[library]

I have never heard of this term before. Is it considered as a particular classification inside of lumbar radiculopathy?

[mmglobal]

Radiculopathy is radiating pain due to nerve irritation. It typically comes from compression of the nerve because of disc herniations, osteophytes (bone spurs), collapsing disc height or buckled ligaments because of the collapse, facet hypertrophy (overgrown facet joints), congenitally small canal or foraminal spaces or other cause.

Even without substantial nerve compression, some people can have substantial radiculopathy because of chemical irritation of the nerve roots. The herniated disc leaks chemicals that are neurotoxic.

Aren't we lucky.

Welcome to the forum,

Mark

[Keano16]

We'll said. Patient can have radiculopathy without visible nerve compression.

It occurs in grade 5 (and grade 4?) annular tear. It represents on MRI as high-intensity zone (HIZ). To see if particular disc is causing problems discography is ordered.

[CajunRich]

MRI says nothing is wrong

4 Different Physicians are blind due to me having a history of opiate problem.

I have not been dx'd yet with anything. I have had severe lower back pain, Near the lumbar/Sacrum area. Then my upper thies will hurt after I have sat down for a little while. Next my Heels will hurt like heck if I am on them to long or drive for long distances. Actually the driving of long distances has been out lately due to my buttock hurting so bad.

My back hurts so bad I have to cut all my boxer shorts so the waste band does not put pressure on my lower back. A belt is out of the question. On bad days it radiates to my hips. After reading all these forums I feel like there is no real fix which is disheartening. My wife and daughter are really suffering b/c of my lack of participation in events with them. This is the first summer in all my life I have only played golf once. (hold...I have to shift my sitting position The only thing I feel is different than what I have read is my heels hurt but not the top of my foot and not a tingling sensation.

I am tempted to just check into a local hospital and not leave till we get a solid DX. MRI said nothing is wrong. Neurosurgeon said it should only be one side not the other if it was injury related. PT made it worse....Chiropractor did help a bit but did not fix the problem. I do feel my skinny butt is helping inflame the nerves. I am just started celebrex and lyrica (yippie)

I want to know can medication cause this pain? What else should I do ...I am lost. Working nights for years in the hospital I would sleep at night in my chair leaned back right on my lower lumber for hrs in a leather chair. I really feel that, golf and my terrible posture is the culprit of problem.

Any thoughts?

[Keano16]

Get a second opinion... (neurosurgeon or ortho surgeon, use SMISS or SpineUniverse doctor finder).

[Maria]

Get another opinion or two or three would be my recommendation as well. Keep complaining if you keep feeling the pain because no doubt you have something going on "in there" that's causing the pain.

I remember when I was told my various problems couldn't be causing bilateral pain or pain that moved from side to side tho it did and I continued to complain until I had all the diagnostics that rendered findings and allowed me to get sufficient spine care (thru Worker's Compensation).

Maybe your habits and posture have contributed to the problem tho it's most likely there one way or the other so the plan would be to get it diagnosed and treated no matter what has made it exist.

I also went for years where I could not even think about wearing jeans because of the waist bands or other pants that had a waist band that would bind or I could feel in that area. Even hosiery that used to feel somewhat tight in the waist area would bother me!

Good luck and keep complaining until you get further diagnostic testing that will help reveal what the nature of your problem could be.

[dshobbies]

Hi CajunRich and welcome to the forum,

Ditto to previous recommendations. Don't know what kind of doctors you've seen but you definitely need a specialist. In addition, I would also recommend a pain management specialist since they are more familiar with drug interactions and what may or may not be related to your opiate use.

From someone having been there with absolutely no medical expertise, it does sound like you're having nerve involvement with something. Keep searching until you find the answer. Some doctor will believe you and explore further.

Good luck and please keep us posted. You might also consider starting your own thread.

Dale

[CajunRich]

Thanks guys/gals for the recommendations. I agree there is something wrong..something is pinching pulling piercing binding ...something lol.

I have gone to Pain Dr..but he only did injections which Im not quite sure if it worked or not b/c 2 days after the SI joint injection I went golfing....boy was that a mistake!!!! I want do that again! Then I went to this "great" Neurosurgeon in downtown Indianapolis..I had high hopes...It sucked. Unfortunately my history with opiates was in the chart b/c that Dr. was in the same system as some previous engagements with some of the other Docs. So i was pretty dam sure I got a sideways look from him. He was the one that said It was less than 2% chance I had an injury related issue b/c it the pain was on both sides and not just down one leg. Urrrrg....he was making jokes and cutting up. Needless to say i wasn't laughing then he straightened up a bit. He then referred me to a neurologist which is where I am now.

I told this Doc that I know how the medical system works when someone comes in with a hx of drug use or and addictive personalty the Dr's put up a barrier right away. He kinda looked at me strange and then i just about broke down crying with him telling him how bad it was and im not here to ask for any pills...I just need to get to the bottom of this. I told him he was the 4th Dr. I had scene and if he couldn't give me a 100% percent look then tell me know before we even waist time here. He then looked at me as I could barely sit in there chair....and there was awkward silence lol...then he just kept on with my work up. He then said the Neurosurgeon said you have neuropathy? I said yes...he said that guy is clueless...that kinda broke the ice. This Dr. gave me Celebrex and lyrica...not exactly the path I wanted to take but hell Ill try anything about now.

He then ordered and bone scan which I did friday and waiting results. After reading a lot of information on Chirogeek. com it sure does seem like I have spondylolisthesis. The chiropractor I went to said I surely have terrible posture and that my lower lumber/sacrum area is binding which is consistent with spondylo.

I have to go on a trip next week for a 10 hr drive. Then caddy for my daughter for 4 days then drive back. This could be the trip that does me in...we will see if I can last.

My wife and I are tempted to just go down to the hospital and say uncle and not leave till I get a Dx.

[Aaron]

I have a herniation at T6-7 that I had discogram for. The discogram was positive at T5-T7 and showed tears in T5-T8 but T8 asymptomatic. I wish they would have continued up my spine until I did not have a positive result, I could have had painful tears up to T1-2 but they stopped at T5 which is usual for testing T6-T7 ( disc above and below) but when positive result occured at T5 it should have changed to keep going. Annular tears are very interesting because doctors dismiss it but the unexpected tears and positive discogram other than at T6-7 caused a surgeon to halt a surgury plan due the new results because he felt T6-7 was not my only pain generator as earlier expected. The sitting pain seems to be a common when dealing with tears, the pain increases at a much faster rate. Most times it gets to the point where I must lay down but every once in a while the pain peaks and actually goes down to a manageable pain while sitting. I attribute this to the possibility that the disc has pushed out any fluid in it through the tear. The SED procedure is very interesting but as chiro geek says unless it is put up for the double blind testing it is all hear say about its results. The pain I feel does not radiate much but the burning is terrible over the spots on my thorasic and it increases when sitting by 10X. Its all so confusing, not many disagnosis have so many variables to deal with. As I have said before I was treated so much better when I was diagnosed with cancer. Surgeons so compassionate and caring along with people in general and it was only thyroid cancer. I could not help but think if I was treated this way for my spine I would have made much better progress by now. Dealing with this constant pain and talking to so many about it I have come to the realization that seems to never be addressed, back pain does kill people. Often from suidcide and often it seems they die inside. There are no rally walks for the spine as there are with mental illnesss, cancer etc. There are no celebrities out there saying help donate to back problem cures. It just seems like we just have to live with this so oh well.

[Maria]

I truly think we should have some kind of "walk" tho many can't walk when pain is on.. can't sit.. so we'd maybe be able to be pushed in gurneys and thus causing some other people back probs..

Anyone that has watched a loved one suffer with horrendous spine related pain and disabilty would likely champion this cause. I know I would.

We as a collective group of sufferers may out number any other incidence of condition out there except the common cold which I keep hearing there's going to be a cure for down the road.

Yep.. back pain sure does cause death. At least of life as we once knew it.

Even tho I have been a long long time spiney I have to say that relief is sweet and I hope that all others out there get it no matter the route.

[Aaron]

I was very interested to see what clooney did after his back was fixed, but I have not heard of him raising any money for the reaseach or helping any with bringing spine problems to a forefront . I mean i was shocked to hear the so called handsomest man with millions of dollars and probably a great life say something to the effect of, ok I will have to kill myself now, when he thought he would live with that pain everyday from the injury he suffered on Syriana movie shoot. Said it was the hardest year of his life, if a major star had gone through cancer they would be on the TV any chance they had to raise money, and thats great, but it does not help any of us. I loved when he talked about how much pain he was in and the doctors looked at him like he was a spoiled hollywood star bitching about something they could not see on tests. Later they found his spinal cord was leaking and some other problems, but you do not have to be a hollywood star for doctors to treat you that way.