My knees going bad... more surgery soon?

[mmglobal]

I'd never had any knee problems before my disability. I was ironic that after I returned from total disability to normal health... my R knee went bad. After years of disability, following my 3rd spine surgery (2-level ADR), at 3 months I was playing tennis... at 4 months I was SCUBA diving and rock climbing... at 5 months I was playing soccer.

BAM... at 6 months I was having knee surgery. An osteochondritic leision had torn loose. A small chunk of 'dead bone' came apart inside my knee, making it necessary to do a pretty standard arthroscopic cleanup surgery. Amazingly, after all my research on spine, I just went to my local surgeon and did what he felt was appropriate.

The surgeon told me that for this type of surgery, he has to grind away at necrotic bone, looking for healthy bone. He said that he just had to keep grinding and grinding and ultimately removed almost 1/2 of the medial condyle. After battling back and returning to sports, he said that will not be successful at volleyball, basketball, soccer or any other sport that was hard on the knees. (He said Tennis was OK, to which I replied, "If tennis is not hard on your knees, you are not playing it right!")

I was shocked that it didn't bother me to hang up my cleats... I felt that it should have been devistating, but I didn't care because MY BACK DIDN'T HURT! In any case, I recovered nicely from the knee surgery, but after a couple of years, my R (the operated knee) started to ache substantially. On one of my trips to the AlphaKlnik, Dr. Toft did an MRI. I was shocked when he said that based on the xrays, my L knee was in worse shape. (There was no MRI of the left.)

My symptoms were not bad enough to do anything yet, so a couple more years passed with just a slight increase in ache and advancing to both sides. A year ago, I had severe pain in my L knee and an MRI shows a miniscus tear. Everyone said that they don't get better on their own, but I didn't listen.. for the last year I've tolerated very temporary bouts of severe pain 3-4 times a week.

Things have gotten much worse and I'm ready to go. If I'm going to simply repair the tear, I'll probably do it locally, but I'll be sending a new MRI to Dr. Toft. If he feels that I'm a good candidate for chondroplasty, I'll do it. I don't know how likely this is. I think a better candidate is earlier in the degenerative process and ther cartilage in both knees is pretty much gone. But I trust Dr. Toft and will most likely do what he recommends.

I wonder if I can observe my own surgery?

Wish me luck... all the best,

Mark

[dshobbies]

Growing older is bad enough but aging SUCKS!

[Maria]

I did this at Kaiser back in '83. My first knee surgery, right medial meniscus tear repair/synovectomy.

It would have been very interesting but I had too much IV fluid in prior to surgery while waiting (surgery pushed back several hours) and didn't get catheterized prior to surgery so almost *burst* during surgery (begged to be cathed but wasn't). Also begged the surgeon to "hurry up"~ he was a nice guy, said he'd never ask another woman if she wanted to stay awake and watch her own surgery again!

You'll probably enjoy watching the surgery if you are able. My second knee surgery was more involved and while I didn't even think to ask to view it one of the Residents I knew described it in detail to me at some point after I was released from the hospital (wasn't pleased at ending up w/long leg cast so wondered why I needed it and surgeon didn't give me much of an explanation).

I know that feeling of being ready to go in terms of knee pain. Good luck ~ keep us posted

[ans]

Wow, that was some first surgery!

I had a medial and lateral meniscus taken care of by arthroscopy and I was amazed at how fast my recovery time was. In two days, I was walking w/a cane. But PT is important for getting back ROM.

Good luck in your choice. I remember that excruciating pain when the cartilage "catches". - Allan

[Hucky :)]

Good Luck Mark. My brother had his knee rebuilt and it took quite a while to get over that surgery. He seems to be okay now.

Hucky

[Roblin]

Mark,
Sorry to hear that you are having knee problems that will require surgery. I have talked to so many people with spine problems and post ADR that are also now having knee problems, myself included, do you think there is any connection or is it just aging for those of us with the not so wonderful disease of DDD that nobody seems to be wanting to do much research on because it is "not lifethreatening"?
Anyway, best wishes!
Roblin

[dshobbies]

I went to a bridal shower this weekend. Most of the 'older' generation was about my age. The main complaint discussed was knees. We're far more active than past generations and our longevity rates are increasing. Maybe knees weren't built to last this long!

[sahuaro]

So sorry to hear this, Mark. I've spent enough time in PT to watch the knee patients rehab--and it's not pleasant, especially the first few sessions--but I've also seen some remarkable recoveries. Sending you my best wishes for a successful surgery.

[mmglobal]

(resurrecting old post.)

OK, the jury is in. L knee MRI that showed meniscus tear was 2 years ago. It's held steady without causing much trouble unless I tried to move something heavy with my L foot, so I ignored it. A month ago, I decided that I'd like to be able to ski and be active again, so I'd better get it fixed. I went to the GP asking for a referral to a knee doc. The manipulations he did to confirm the diagnosis really flared things up and I've been quite bad ever since. I've gone from being able to avoid the painful movements, to having 5/10 pain probably 70% of the time with several bouts of 9/10 pain that last several minutes every day. I just returned from a 12 day trip for client surgeries and I was worried that the knee was going to abort the trip.

Luckily, I ran the gauntlet with the new, so called 'managed health care' and already had the surgery scheduled. TODAY, I'll have the arthroscopic cleanup.

I was surprised that the surgeon did not want an updated MRI as the last imaging was 2 years old. His reply indicated that MRI's are of limited value for knees and that the absolute best view is from inside during the surgery. My R knee (operated on in 2003) had significant problems with 'dead bone' on the end of my femur. There are some bone issues called out on the 2007 MRI, but nothing like we saw in the R knee. I'm uncomfortable moving forward without new imaging but cannot afford to get things done properly. I'm moving forward because cleaning up the tear is a simple surgery and if there are further problems later, repeat surgery will not be impaired by the prior surgery.

Wish me luck!

Mark

[dshobbies]

Ouch Mark,

Wonderful how modern medicine can fix us up but in the end, we'll all Humpty Dumptys. Our cracks will always show.

Julius had this surgery 3 years ago and was back on his feet very quickly. Good luck- Dale

[sahuaro]

Mark:
Wishing you all the best with the surgery and recovery.
The MRI of my right shoulder did not at all give an accurate picture of the extent of damage; my ortho was insistent that I did not need MRI of the left shoulder and that his clinical exam was enough--and he was correct.

Let us know how you are doing, please.

[Cindylou]

Mark, best of luck with this surgery of your knee. Getting old bites the big one. I have had total knee reconstruction and an arthroscopic repair ten years after that on same knee. I am hanging in there till the doomed total knee replacement cries out. I say, anyone who has had the cervical and lumbar surgeries like you have had, will find this knee surgery a walk in the park.

[Gil Denis]

Hi Mark

I tore my Meniscus ski racing 12 years ago and removed 20%. did very well until a couple of years ago and had a clean up
Still doing great on the knee
If you can get back to riding a bike ,It was the best thing for my knees.

I just started rideing my road bike and seems to help all my issues.

All The Best

Take Care man

Gil

[nomorepain]

Woiw, if i was you i'd go in and go for the total bionics job!
good luck as always!

[ans]

Good luck with the arthoscopy.

I'm seeing an ortho guy (not spine specialized) this Monday for hip/leg pain and w/mention my knees that both have had surgery. Want to make sure I don't need a knee replacement in a few years.

Can you swim Mark? Do the PT exercises they recommend, OK?

Best, Allan

[nomorepain]

sounds like you are going for total bionics........
Good Luck with whatever you decide on, once your back up to speed we must get together, it's been way too long since we chatted!
it's time to catch up

[mmglobal]

knee surgery was july 15th. It had been very slightly improved, but is back to where it was in some respects. The ache that I would get with walking is not nearly as bad as it was. The severe pain I would get when I load if with any sideways force is just as bad. I tried swimming, but any kicking generates the severe pain. When I get back to the pool for my t-spine next week... I'll swim, but with no kick.

Mark

[Maria]

My experience w/both rt. knee surgeries was that the first one which was a medial menicus tear/synovial tear, chondromalacia type clean up had a pretty speedy recovery but not for lateral movement (never really got that back w/o some repercussions) but could swim some months afterwards w/o probs~ 2nd surgery ~ patella tendon release done surgerically (not done surgically anymore) had a prolonged recovery and kicking with swimming was near impossible the first year.

I had to learn how to walk literally with the 2nd surgery as I guess I had a goofy sort of gait (congential feet probs, bilteral patella tracking probs, and the list is endless I'm sure for ortho deviations).

I hope the surgery you had addressed the problem you had. Knock on wood my rt. knee has been good since last surgery in '90 but there are flare ups and recovery did take time esp. the 2nd time 'round.

When I felt compromised for while here and there I'd wear a light knee brace for a few days to help out or limit mobility until the knee flare ups passed. You may still be in the recovery zone period and have to find your way around what will help you recover best re activity (Nsaids out for me due to GI probs).

[ans]

Not to intrude on Mark's knee problems, my right knee that's had chondromalacia since '78 (post cartilage repair, pre-arthroscopy days) is having intense pain. I will ask the orthopedic specialist tomorrow about this as I've read (many years ago), that shaving the cartilage underneath the kneecap doesn't help chondromalacia so well. But that was then..

Good luck Mark. Yeah, a lateral stabilization device like those who've had ACL repair might be helpful when you engage in more intense activities - maybe.

Best, ans

[Maria]

ans,
I had that done back in the late '80s as well re right knee tho w/i last 5 years saw the OSS re knee pain and was told they don't do that anymore.

It probably depends. If surgeon is already in there and working on something maybe it's done still but probably if one goes to the doctor, has an xray and this is found the treatment would be much more conservative now without the arthroscopic treatment and maybe just the injections...

I know I have chrondromalacia in both knees now for at least 20 years and have done nothing about because it's only symptomatic for awhile and then passes so I just wait it out for now.

Lateral movement in right knee is tricky. It's not a stable knee so doesn't tolerate it well.

[ans]

How are you now Mark?